e e e e e e e e e you say t yeah good afternoon and welcome to the city council finance committee meeting of Thursday April 20 April 18th 2024 uh four items on the agenda the first of these has a a change it was a scrier error to put those four Outside Agency it operations um flock cameras and Animal Welfare funding on there uh so we'll just have the discussion regarding the 20242 city of Norman budget thank you Mr Mayor as you all know um we had the first of the um study to unveil the fcal year 25 city manager proposed budget on Tuesday um um most council members were there or have received the information uh I assume that you're about onethird of the way through memorizing it um but again as you have any questions related to the budget feel free to give us a call um at least a couple of you have made um made uh times to meet with me about about the budget so we'll look forward to that and again um we are just in the early phases of the final stages of the council's budget and so um anything that you want to take away or add uh please let us know I'd like to compliment your staff and you on on a tremendous job that's you do it every year it's hard in gim it's it's just a wonderful job anything from Council that you want to add good item number two this the discussion updating the Urban Land Institute plan for the Griffin property uh thank you your honor we've been um trying to put together the puzzle pieces to uh ensure the city of Norman is in the best possible position that when the State Department of Mental Health begins to break pieces of real estate loose um Council has input on what replaces existing state assets we have in our possession a an Urban Land Institute plan for the the major campus portion between Main Street and Robinson um it's it's a little out of date it included uh public infrastructure investments in things like a municipal swimming pool and since that plan um was presented to council we built public swimming pools at senior wellness and at the young family athletic center and of course Westwood Pool is our our busiest we've got a lot of pools and we're thinking maybe a a pool no longer fits the plan um in order to help the state maximize the value on that piece of real estate and of course any dollar uh gain from the sale of real property in Norman is a dollar of taxpayers money less that'll come out of the state budget to build additional Hospital Capac capity uh we' actually made an offer to the State Department of Mental Health uh to purchase the soccer park uh and the Sutton Wilderness Area for public purposes and we have appraisals that reflect the value as a soccer park and as um a nature preserve we also indicated in our offer that in order to help the state maximize uh the sales price that we would support the entitlement of that property for development purposes and kind of Step One is what is it Council would like to see develop there what would Council support in in a platting process none of the land is platted uh it doesn't have zoning it's just you know identified as public space on the map and we thought um a good first step might be updating that Urban Land Institute plan we don't believe UL is available to update it on on our behalf in any kind of time frame that that makes sense uh but we wanted to get some uh input from Council as to your desire to have that uh Uli document maybe be the starting point and then bring that up to current uh you know Council consideration and what you'd like to see happen um and if it's not Uli some some consultant to be able to help us out it would be the basis from which a tax increment financing District could be established on that currently assessed at zero real property uh to help pay for the infrastructure necessary to support infill development con um I was going to say there have been some pretty big changes from 2015 to now um some things that may not have been what somebody would consider financially viable like a hotel which was in the original plan um could actually be something that is sorely needed more than a pool um things that could uh contribute to incentivizing this development could be historic tax credits New Market tax credits and I'm thinking about mixed income housing um this is a perfect opportunity uh for density and I was saying earlier like with Center City we saw how form-based code allowed um density height-wise and and how it could uh evolve towards the neighborhoods to be uh lower density and not as tall um Porter campus leaving is a huge change from 2015 I don't know if that was on anybody's radar I bet it was not in 2015 and the opportunity for Council to recognize the tax exempt nature of the porter campus um could it be and I'm looking at Anthony and Katherine to develop a new Tiff on Griffin could you also include a tiff on that Porter campus because it could become U you know privately held at some point in the not too distant future and automatically impact the tax roles could I would think that there would be two separate districts but I think you could because they have to be continuous yeah I believe they both would qualify as theal development act so that's certainly possible um other things uh the County's plans for the fairgrounds I don't know if they've had those plans since 2015 but it was since then they did a study more recently than that so there's some Synergy to think about I'm thinking about a hotel but I'm also thinking about in the original plan there was an ask for an Arts Cultural Center um I do recognize that the chapel might require a lot of money to rehab but the benefits are that you can't replicate that kind of architecture today anything you try to do with today's money will be afford ory um that is also a cultural Cornerstone for the community especially if you're going to build a whole community in that area that will be the landmark for people when they're navigating around town um so uh maybe Lisa or somebody who worked or on this back in the day might be able to talk about the chapel it's in bad sh uh it's it's it's a great building um you might come to the table I think that there needs to be a uh you know the chapel in particular needs to have a quite a bit more research by structural engineer perhaps Structural Engineers Architects uh I haven't been in it since 2015 uh it's when I was in it the main room I guess was was gutted it was completely vacant there is water in the basement it's my opinion that it's flashing problem seems to be going around these days um that that could possibly I mean it's it's a solid masonry structure and when you walk around it there's not a crack in it so I think that you know further investigation on that building at least as well as you know the rest of the buildings out there and is warranted um so yeah I could see a way that historic tax credits and potentially low income tax credits because in the original plan it asked for an art cultural center that was not only venue but offices and some potential housing opportunities um in addition to outdoor space that allowed for more festivals and arts markets um so also building on the economy of Griffin and what could potentially be there um also back in the day I don't think we had the same amount of activity with the soccer fields correct um and then downtown has grown quite a bit since 2015 um so those are just some of the things that stand to mind that have changed in over the course of time and where some people might not see Economic Opportunity in 2015 terms is a completely different market now um and then also in regards to the pace of change we have our um aim Norman steering committee work and um people are already ask asking for feedback about like where density can go and it's good to keep in mind for this RFP that whoever is working on this needs to understand that the steering committee thinks we're going to be at 170 or I'm sorry 187,000 people by 245 so um I would can go right here really like to see uh density multi family but multi-use um a small smart development pattern so that you're not overwhelming the surrounding neighborhoods and you're kind of blending in and creating connectivity um we also have the water quality protection zones which probably will mostly serve as green belts and not be developable um I think pocket neighborhoods weren't something that we talked about as much in the past I think it's been around for 20 years but um in more recent times especially when we think about people downsizing out of their housing and wanting to be more Comm communal spaces like share the lawn mower or the garden um you know that would lend itself well to being on the edges of Griffin on Carter and Maine um you could have more commercial opportunity multi uh use like housing on the top commercial on the bottom along 12 and potentially maybe the corner of Robinson depends on how like the art thing works out um i' Al like to say thinking about the historical context of the place that uh you know encouraging like Community Gardens would hearken back to the mental health uh aspect of thousand acres in full operation back in the day so I I think a plan that comes forward needs to be mindful of the history of that site and then thinks about the density and the use of that site moving forward so um in I think it's w seven council member Homan is is on South 12 or South Classen it's kind of catty corner from the Taco Bell I think there's there's mixed use development some three-story buildings that probably were you know early in in 12 yeah um and and that may have been kind of out on its own back when it was built but yeah that opportunity to bring those kinds of densities further north and take advantage of your major transportation corridors you got a four lane with designated turn Lanes on Robinson and a four lane with designated turn Lanes on 12 designed to move a lot of bodies so if you really crank up your density you to not put those just on residential streets but help direct that traffic to those major transportation corridors there's a lot of bus stops around there as well uh and the connectivity to downtown it's not that far of a walk even the uh is it Senior Living I don't think it's Assisted Living just next door to the fairgrounds that's all new since past more recent than 2015 U there has been a lot of change what I oh you you were go ahead what I'd suggest we do is as a council sit down and and Define all these things are wonderful but instead of in taking it let's start some public conversations about the good stuff that you've got there uh as as we look at that what other things we know what things we can do to help the whole East decide what holistically is going to work over there past 12th to to maybe 24th Define what we want prior to putting it out to an RFP and say we want to keep the chapel and if we if at all possible what will it take to do that and and build it almost modularly so that we can sit down and say okay the chapel works or it doesn't work well I thought this process was more for like defining the RFP to go out so that we can get something back that allows us to Plat it cuz I do feel it will be a recursive process and that we will get somebody hopefully who bites and I kind of hope for a regional firm and not one that is from a different part of the country with a different Market that doesn't really understand Oklahoma um so I'm hoping that would also be something when we're putting this RFP out it gets into the hands of uh Regional firms uh that can help us get to what we want but I would like to move forward because I would like to see that land uh move through the sale uh we're probably still going to take I hate to be pessimistic but maybe a year or two um and could we when we come up with the list of infrastructure those things that we think Tiff dollars would be used to fund could you include include Tiff dollars to potentially rehabilitate the chapel yes so it's not a general fund expense which just warms my heart um and then the opportunity for things like on Griffin property south of Main Street to say and and just the way it it it exists today there's a lot of public services south of Maine and I don't really see those land uses changing much there's room for additional potential Public Services could you take Tiff dollars generated north of Main Street to develop permanent shelter services south of Main Street again theoretically yes so you know if you've got funding sources outside your general fund which you recognize we're we're okay but we're a little limited you you could really move the needle without having to make some really hard decisions about your general fund operations also interject that the original plan envisioned maybe Norman forward as also being a potential source of funding so I do think something could be put together um yeah but honestly I would just like to see us have some people sub submit to this pick a firm tell them what we want and we can still have those conversations while staff gets the RFP written sent out and what not and then it would come back to us and we give more Direction I assume the more Direction we'd give a uh somebody who to whom we would send an RFP I think the the less guessing that they have to do do and the less um managing to us I agree with you it's got to be a reg it doesn't have to be it ought to be a regional firm of one sort or another because that's one of the one of the ways we can get in trouble quickly and to to have somebody there um and I think it it particularly at first if all we have to do now is all all you need is do we need to Plat or not plat and how you want to Plat it just big squares yeah um just if we get general direction that council's interested in us uh taking some proactive steps to make sure Council gets what it hopes to get on that infill property yeah we'll bring you back some recommendations on solutions to get from here to there uh there's something to be said about if you get really specific you provide certainty to the market uh if you get too specific you may reduce creativity in the market so there's a balance there's not a right or a wrong it's just certainty is good and creativity is good too yeah it it just be a Pity to write a put or a spud as soon as you finished but yeah Stephen I'm sorry C remember yeah um so I definitely would like to see an update for sure I think that was a good thing 10 years ago that we did um to prepare for all of that space potentially becoming available for uh development um but it was a long time before we started talking about getting rid of parking minimums um it's so it shows a lot of parking surface parking in there that may not be necessary anymore um I think it shows a lot more intensive commercial only along the edges than I think would be needed and may now be more suitable to be mixed use stuff and then um we hadn't approved the food and shelter location had not come forward at that time yet either so I don't think that's that was anticipated U so including that including other things that have changed um and it did include you know a design around the storm water channel that goes through there Bishop Bishop Creek already which was good and having you know Green Space features around that channel um was a good piece of that uh thinking about things like the cathedral I mean even if it wasn't usable if it's a sound structure keeping it as a cultural Landmark I think is a good idea I'd be nice if it was usable and I think with any with any amount of money you can do anything right but um but being able to use a tiff mechanism per perhaps to do something like that is something I think the community would really get behind too like uh people that are skeptical of tiffs and their use could could really get behind I could see them getting really behind it being used for something like that um same thing with the main administration building and the Hope Hall and maybe a few of the other buildings the edil Ford house uh restoring that um you know the M uh McKenzie Gardens is it and fr Kate Francis Francis Kate Park um you know those things and then when it comes to like a tiff you know I had even really thought about either you could do like Porter to 12th and Robinson down to alamer or you could do the tracks all the way to 12th or and you could even draw it so it includes that Walmart Super Center could we do that theoretically yes so that way any increment in growth remember there would not be that much incremental tax from the Walmart it's there sure but you know as the east side I assume if we built a whole new neighborhood next to it across the street that sales may go up at that Walmart and potentially it without parking minimums other out buildings could pop up in that and it could be a way for us to invest into downtown and the neighborhoods around it using money generated by that Walmart which in many cases hurts downtowns and things like that so a way to kind of there's a lot of shopping in there there's all goes long 12 and and that would include the hospital too so including the Griffin and the hos and Porter campus in one large Tiff or you could have a separate downtown Tiff and then a griffin Tiff but yes C I would like the idea just including the whole tracks maybe yeah we should ask Catherine about um boundaries and whatnot I mean really it has to be contiguous that's that's the primary um requirement um you you would want to be I think strategic of about the purpose behind each Tiff because it can become an identity for that area so if you draw it too big it kind of loses some of that um you can fund use it to fund public projects you can use it to uh provide assistance in developer financing um so there's a lot of things you can do to both provide for public improvements to improve the Chapel to improve other buildings but also put in infrastructure that helps make it easier for a developer to make the decision to come and and locate in that area so there's lots of ways we could do it um and it really probably depends more on on what you all think the goals and objectives of each area should be um and you can do a large project area in multiple increment districts that's what Oka city does um so that's one way to do it as well and and that gives you a lot of options so when you're ready to trigger one District you can trigger it now and then you know in five years maybe we're ready to do downtown what it's already set up you just have to trigger that increment District um um so there's there's lots of ways we can we can look at it comprehensively and still move forward with pieces when we're ready it could be used to repair or build new sidewalks in original townside and Old Courthouse old Silk Stockings if we included it I see yeah Alleyways if we wanted to do that carbon gutter storm water issues so that's why I was thinking it could be used to help in entice the development on the Griffin but if we included the neighborhoods around it it could be used to uh update all their infrastructure too which is the oldest infrastructure in town so it it all come down to how much so I say we could use some of that increment off a Walmart Super Center to help pay for new sidewalks and curbs and all that stuff in the old neighborhood um and so that's just one idea though about how Tiff area could work but I do like the idea of updating it um to reflect some of the current things we've talked about um you know there's an opportunity to you know extend Frank Street and Rich Street and Oliver Street and just continue the historic you know grid pattern of the neighborhood and have density and preserve some of the history of it and have a new neighborhood that reflects the history of what was there um and what it meant to Norman um you know all these years so yeah I uh I like the idea of the council as a whole having a more detailed conversation in the public too uh but getting something out there to ideally local firm or Regional that can update it for us so I don't think we need you to update it for us and just understand probably would not be ul ul is a group of volunteers that are planners and Architects that that take on these projects nationally they did one for downtown Oklahoma City after Memorial bombing they did one when this um when this potential land became available for development and the state was going to move off of the current Griffin site but but that's the sort of projects that they look for but again as far as hiring a consultant to do an update would probably not be UL right it might be a Uli member but it would be a firm that you know locally or regionally or I get my tongue to work it'll be a lot easier um for today's discussion do we want to go ahead and give um the manager the ability to be able to go down and plat it and we can talk about I would think you would what we'd be looking for is direction to go do an RFP for okay plan and we'll bring you that back for Council formal action yeah those are things I'm looking for in that RFP for sure yes so you would develop the RFP presented at Council we would weigh in revisions if needed and then it would go out Y and then we'll bring bring you back a firm through that process to update the plan um what would you estimate that cost gra Anthony told me no [Laughter] gravy uh that that may be a Jane question of but yeah we'll bring you back cost estimates with it and how we go about getting it paid for thank you sir all right as far as a tiff does that go is that a separate separate probably following shortly thereafter what we would need um in order to get the Tiff established is a willing property owner um and that could very well be the state you know I I would think their ability to sell it to a different buyer to say yes we want to do a tiff um they're going to need a little more certainty before they can get enough value out of it to actually make the sale so uh I do believe there will be um appropriate pressure placed on the state to say yes we will uh support a TI on this real estate before the sale it's wonderful this is really another exciting thing to do it it's just another major change in in uh in how Norman's going to go and I think it'll be fun to see what happens uh over the next year year and a half however long this takes to be able to uh realize those dreams as best we can and the timetable on in if we're fortunate we'll be able to bust off the soccer field bust off Sutton Wilderness uh even bust off the stuff south of Main Street and and get that you know in public hands or in in private nonprofit hands we know the hospital is going to stay where it is in full operation for at least three years while the new hospital gets built that they broke ground on in the last month um so we have a little time R rock yeah as long as we can uh get the other pieces broken off and get some money in their coffers um I think they'll be patient and and willing participants to go through this process with us yeah anybody got anything further they want to comment okay thank you that's it's a cool idea discussion regarding monthly revenue and expenditure reports Mr um really nothing to add this month uh Mr Mayor I would just point out that the Appropriations that you have made are listed there and draw your attention to that um but but the largest of those of course has been for the for the fire trucks so that's really all I'll just be GL to respond to any questions that you may have yes sir just uh note that four out of the last five months have been positive bars on the bar graph compared to the year last month was down but the three out of the last four been up including this past one and then um looks like the last three months we've been inching closer to being at the projected revenue for the year so doing pretty good and always interesting to see the Ci's comparison so anything of note Anthony about National stuff Trend cities nothing new um the FB recently kind of um responded to inflation reports by saying they're probably not going to aggressively um adjust interest rates over the next quarter or two um and the market responded to that but but nothing nothing really now any retail Trends you notic or anything no again we are we continue to monitor things we're you know we're on this flat trajectory and I think that's a a real thing now we we've been on that trajectory for almost a year now so okay thanks sorry um anything else for Mr Francisco all right item number four internal audits program status please the fun stuff Hello mayor councel so the update we have internal audit and internal audit is uh we have internal control assessments out um internal control assessments is the first step to a risk assessment process as we know risk assessments are used to develop the audit audit plan internal control assessments are used to inform the risk assessment identify those risks identify the gaps that can be um fulfilled or made more effective made more efficient uh we are about halfway through those next week I have a 101 meeting with each department head to discuss the content of their IC assessments or internal control Assessments in may we will move forward with performing a risk assessment based on those internal control assessments um and identifying the the most the highest functions divisions departments programs and activities that present the highest risk to the city and the city's objectives uh and June I will compile a audit plan for the triennial period which is a three-year period July I will deliver you an audit plan um as far as investigations investigation concerning the FSI uh contract k222 356 awaits Daryl piles the city manager's comments or um his response and also we wait the status of those responses uh as far as the implementation of the recommendations go okay questions from Council you nailed it yeah I'm having fun thank you very much thank you very much anything else from councel than and I guess we get my favorite word thank you this U not this
Tax-Free Retirement Planning